Some things I would like, after we get rid of the traitorous rapist in the Oval:
0. Put some standards around being president, like passing a citizenship test.
1. The Republican party, RICO'd into oblivion.
2. Health care for all.
3. Minimum basic income for all.
4. Removal of all tax loopholes used by king don, almost assuredly including the home interest mortgage deduction
Any concerns on these?
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0. Bilingualism, for all elected offices.
ReplyDeleteSome concerns around keeping the "standards" for presidency race/class neutral, and also stopping wealthy and powerful people from cheating. There would be complicated scandals whenever this test successfully disqualified someone. =/
ReplyDeleteYeah - we don't require literacy or citizenship tests for voting because we used to and we saw how they were used. I don't see how we could make one work for the Presidency either.
ReplyDeleteYou'd have to show that the Democratic Party is actually aiding illegal aliens in entering the country. Given what the previous Democratic administration did (increase deportations wildly over the prior, Republican, administration) it seems unlikely.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, it seems unlikely you could get a RICO indictment against the GOP. Even if caught money laundering you'd have to prove that it was done on behalf of a criminal enterprise. A foreign government doesn't usually qualify.
In any event, it wouldn't change anything. The people who vote GOP would just vote for whatever the successor organization would be.
Jason Corley: Foreign governments donating to American political parties is an illegal enterprise, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteJust thinking that, hypothetically, a money laundering operation that turned foreign money into political donations ... isn't RICO exactly what you'd prosecute that under?
Tony Lower-Basch There's lots of illegal things that don't qualify as racketeering.
ReplyDeleteDerek Balling Attractive nuisances only exist in civil law. Certainly not a predicate offense under RICO.
ReplyDeleteJason Corley You're speaking rather authoritatively. Are you a lawyer?
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols Yeah. I only
ReplyDeleteever drew up one RICO indictment though so I'm no expert.
That's like the notorious RBG being like "I've only ever done one civil rights case, so I'm so expert" when talking to, I dunno, pre law students or something.
ReplyDeleteYou're an expert in this crowd.
Make America Denmark Again
ReplyDeleteMy continuing fear that MBI would be a poverty wage.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean, Robert Bohl?
ReplyDeleteWell, um, I work because I find fulfillment in it. I'm lucky enough to not be financially obligated to stick with a job that doesn't scratch that itch, and I'm very eager to extend that luxury to everyone. We can find out what way more people are actually passionate about.
ReplyDeleteThe point of the MBI is recognizing that regardless of whether or not there's a reason to work, a huge number of jobs are going to be lost to automation, so work won't be an option.
ReplyDeleteThe other point of the MBI is compensating, for the first time, the vast amount of uncompensated labor that is why we have a society. Historically, the supermajority of this labor was done by women, and especially poorer women who can't hire someone else to do it. As a stay-at-home dad, I genuinely believe that the work I do deserves more than poverty.
What do you mean what do I mean? What I said is pretty clear :). Why do we expect an MBI would be any better than welfare payments? The racists and Calvinists controlling this country will never allow people to live comfortably and reasonably for "nothing." If we get an MBI policy, it seems obvious to me that people on MBI would be extremely poor.
ReplyDeleteI mean a lot of things!
ReplyDeleteLike one, what do you mean by wage? A wage is in exchange for labor, so an MBI isn't a wage.
What do you mean poverty? An MBI is meant to establish a baseline, not a cap.
And now what do you mean by "people on MBI"? Everybody would receive an MBI.
I feel like there are some misunderstandings here.
I still maintain I was very clear, but: I expect anyone relying solely on MBI will be poor.
ReplyDeleteBut this is being discussed as a fix for a world that doesn't have enough jobs, so I don't get how "you wouldn't just survive on MBI" makes sense.
ReplyDeleteWell, we've got a very clear view of the Calvinist doctrine that people are lazy wretches who need to be whipped into shape in order to serve the noble sentiments of society.
ReplyDeleteI always wonder where they think the noble sentiments of society came from if not people. I guess Calvinists would say "God," but then I think most Calvinists are twits.
So ... to those who say "Hey, if you paid me enough to live just for being human then (a) I would be a lazy jerk and contribute nothing to society, and (b) most people are like me," I absolutely accept point (a), and absolutely reject point (b).
It's just you.
I always find the "society is created by amazing geniuses, and everyone else is just bystanders" notion of the world so funny. I imagine origin stories that involve some mild-mannered student being bitten by a radioactive entrepreneur.
ReplyDeleteBut I've spent too much time around people who actually do stuff to put much faith in such fairy-tales. I talk with neighbors who haul their butts out of bed in the rain at 3a.m., when a branch falls on the house up the street, to jury-rig repairs with tarp and bungee-cord. I talk with organizers who work their fingers to the bone in the hope that a thousand of their closest friends will have fun at the convention they've all worked to bring together.
The more people are freed from privation and financial stress, the more they create for others. Law of human nature.
Yeaaaah ... people refusing to (for instance) clean sewers until they are paid a wage that makes them willing to do so, even though they have other options ... that's a feature, not a bug. That's the intended outcome.
ReplyDeleteIf what you want is an underclass, maintained in constant deprivation so that they will do the scut-work because it's their only way to survive, then sure. I see the argument. But, again, I think most people are not quite that monstrous when they really think about it. Please don't project from your personal failings to an image of humanity. I am quietly confident that most people are not with you on this.
Let's pause and make sure people are having fun, as this seems heated.
ReplyDeleteTony, Derek, are you both having fun? If not, go have fun!
Thumbs up! I always enjoy a chance to express my faith in the constructive nature of humanity.
ReplyDeleteDerek, how does your take address the fact that we're talking about solving a world without jobs? If you admit that the MBI would mean a life of miserable poverty, where else are people going to make up that money? I mean, if robots are going to be writing our books and doing our dentistry?
ReplyDeleteThat's what this whole conversation ought to be about.
(And I don't see how the idea that our hyper-capitalist nation will start handing people money is any less fanciful than believing in human decency.)
ReplyDeleteYes! We're on the same page. They should be exponentially more highly compensated.
ReplyDeleteThe simple fact is, some people really like the idea of (for instance) owning a boat. Even if they have enough money for a little walk-up apartment where they can watch TV all day, they have an ambition that money would satisfy. So if they can make 200K/year cleaning out sewers, they'll go clean out sewers, clean off at the end of the week, and go take their yacht for a spin on the bay.
I take you at your word that no amount of money would be enough for you to do hard, dirty labor, but you're not the universal model of humanity. You're just lazy. Some people are! Some people like to work. I've painted rails and dug post-holes for loose spending money, and sometimes just because it needed doing.
There's plenty of other people with that kind of work ethic. If some scut-work came with a stellar wage attached, I'd presumably have to surpass other more qualified applicants before getting access to such a job.
We've got such an historic excess in our society, scut-work labor is a ridiculously easy problem to solve. We throw money at it.
Happy to clarify my notions of a minimum basic income:
ReplyDelete(1) It is minimum; that is, it is sufficient to eliminate poverty, approximately $1,000 per month per adult.
(2) It is basic, as in universal: It is provided to all adults regardless of circumstance.
(3) It is income: It is provided, say, monthly.
At the same time, as mentioned above I'd like to see free health care for all, perhaps similar to the Canadian system. The relevant point to MBI is that $1,000 a month does not need to go towards health care.
As for why, a few reasons:
a) It is the birthright of all people, everywhere. This isn't just a moral claim, but also an economic one.
b) We produce so much and the best way to keep the money moving is to keep it moving.
c) Currently, getting SSDI + welfare + unemployment + SNAP benefits is a full time job for those who need them; this makes it automatic.
d) This has a whole lot of other positives, and the internet can tell you all about them.
I adore the MBI. I really do.
Robert Bohl: Oh, and FWIW I heartily endorse robot dentistry. That seems like a really good place for sub-millimeter precision and customized remote cameras/sensors.
ReplyDeleteWow, Derek Balling, that was a quick reversal! All because Tony Lower-Basch said you were lazy? Or did I miss something?
ReplyDeleteI'm down with robot dentistry, too. And maybe even novel writing. I just want to know what we're going to do in Robotlandia with a barely-living wage.
ReplyDeleteAnd William, I'm afraid that they'll never make it that easy.
Oh sure, Rob, this is more about the world I seek than any world I expect.
ReplyDeleteI don't expect Trump, Pence, & Ryan to be arrested & to die in prison, but I sure do hope so.
I don't expect the Republican party to be destroyed the RICO charged, but I sure do hope so.
I don't expect us to move to a fairer system for electing President, but I sure do hope so.
I don't expect us to move to free health care for all, but I sure do hope so.
With that as a precurser, a real MBI doesn't seem so far fetched!
Hahaha
ReplyDeleteI also don't expect us to stop having a backdoor tax on the poor & redlined for the sin of not owning a home, but I sure do hope so.
ReplyDelete