I can't imagine how this anything but the worst possible squandering of public interest in Cap, coming right on the heels of several immensely popular films. Cap's brand recognition has never been stronger, and THIS is how they use it?
As a fan, I'm frustrated by the desire to tear down one of the only moral paragons of the Marvel Universe. There are plenty of morally ambiguous and outright evil characters in their stable. This is just a terrible move and I am intensely skeptical that an interesting story could emerge from it.
Jesse Rupp The is and always has been is ridiculous, right. It'd be one (bad) thing to say that as Cap gets old, he's gone senile and evil. That'd be understandable, but the paragon of the USA, who wields the stars and stripes, working for Hitler?
Jay Treat Because remember, what's great about super heroes is that they have super awesome powers! Not that they exhibit morality and act as a guiding beacon for us.
Nah, that's silly talk. They have power, so they are in charge. Because that's what life is: the powerful pushing down the weak.
Brandes Stoddard And, apparently, they've been plotting this for years.
There is a disconnect between the Marvel/DC and enjoyers of comics. I don't always want 4-color, but damnit, I want that to be an option.
Don't give me brooding superman; give me a superman torn between his love of Lois and sense of duty to everyone.
Once that happened, Cap was the sole remaining singularly morally positive force, with no shades of grey. We need that.
I remember the exchange from ... Avengers maybe ... where Loki forces a crowd to kneel, and one man refuses. Cap shows up, and what's he say?
Cap: You know, the last time I was in Germany and saw a man standing above everybody else, we ended up disagreeing.
That's Captain America. He doesn't even need to be a person per say; he is the spirit of freedom. He is the stuff of the best of us (all of us, not just the USA), saying no to tyranny .
Thanks, Brandes Stoddard . I had. And yeah, the article makes the right point: Nazis aren't standard villains. There's a reason the internet has Godwin's Law, and why if you compare your opponent to Hitler you lose.
That's what Marvel just did to Cap, and they lose the argument.
Something to bear in mind that might (I say might) make this easier to respond to with a wry head-shake than an angry fist-shake: Creators don't actually change the core of the character very effectively. Now some comic book artists will get all excited about how they're going to reinvent a character, but it turns out that after a bit of a run, somebody else gets the title and they heave a sigh and return to form. Very few people (Frank Miller, Alan Moore) pull off a real change, and they are justly legend.
Folks envision the making of comics as a carefully coordinated endeavour, with oversight and meticulous planning at every stage. But from all the evidence of Stan Lee's letter columns, the bullpen is really more like a bunch of kids in a classroom passing a bunch of developing stories back and forth from one set of grimy, pencil-smudged hands to the next.
So did Marvel screw up? Maybe, on some level. But it's a lot more like the individual creators involved screwed up. Did DC screw up in its portrayal of movie-Superman? I guess ... but Zack Snyder deserves a heaping helping of blame, too.
There's an Avengers story, back in the day, in which an extradimensional being makes Carol Danvers mysteriously pregnant, so that she gives birth to him, and he rapidly develops into a powerful magic adult male ... who then wants Carol to come back with him to his magic sky palace. She says she don't want to, so he waves his hand and magics it so she wants to, and the Avengers are all like "Well, problem solved! See you love-birds around!" and off they go.
Chris Claremont, then head editor, comes around and says "So, that was a great vacation. Let's see what you guys have been up to in my absence. X-Men, very nice, Spiderman, excellent work, Avengers ... uh ... what the HELL? Okay, somebody clear the schedule for the Avengers annual. Book me our best artists. I'm going to start writing." And then he went and had Carol come back and tell the Avengers (essentially) "You total chucklewits, what kind of heroes are YOU to let that guy abuse and abduct me?"
This stuff happens, people rage for a while, then it fades into history, retroactively smoothed into a continuity that remains (like how Cap doesn't have degenerative nerve disease any more, and Superman isn't dead).
I can recommend another Steven who wields an indestructible shield and boundless optimism: http://www.themarysue.com/steven-universe-maternal-narrative/ (Relatively spoiler-free. Huge spoiler for episode 52, but Davey's already told you about it. Openly mentions two issues that build over dozens of episodes and aren't readily apparent at the beginning but are at least hinted at in the first two episodes)
George Austin The last thing you recommended was Hamilton, and now that's one of my standard work at home tracks. Sure, like I need another of your recommendations .... :-)
William Nichols The Hamilton Soundtrack is (provisionally,because it's so new), number four on my list of all-time favorite pieces of media. Steven Universe is (also provisionally) number two.
Both are deeper down the specific-to-George rabbit hole, so I don't recommend them very often. Three Is more accessible, though (Princess Mononoke by Hayao Miyazaki/Studio Ghibli. Sometimes Kiki's Delivery Service or My Neighbor Totoro will jump way up the list to here or near it, though). Five is often a book/literary thing (Hamlet, The Palm at the End of the Mind, The Hobbit, The Thirteen Clocks, The Tempest), or Yojimbo, The Big Lebowski, or Citizen Kane.
Honorable mention currently ongoing comics (to tie back to the subject at hand) include Unbeatable Squirrel Girl and Gotham Academy.
Number one on the list is the Revolutionary Girl Utena TV show, which just happens to be one of the two or three biggest influences on Rebecca Sugar re: Steven Universe.
No, just Cap, as of the newest comic series planned, wherein it's "revealed" that Steve is and has always been a Hydra Agent.
ReplyDeleteWhich was a group within the Third Reich run by, among others, famed Nazis Red Skull and Baron Zemo.
So yeah. They're actually making Cap a Nazi. No hyperbole.
That's not okay.
ReplyDeleteTurns out Batman was always a mutant and all his apparent achievements are meaningless.
Turns out Superman was always an illusion. He never actually helped anyone.
Turns out Spiderman doesn't feel any guilt or responsibility at all.
Who needs the essential core of a superhero anyway?
This unusual for me, but: This is not a thread to defend marvel. Nor Nazis.
ReplyDeleteThis is a thread for things like Jesse Rupp and Jay Treat 's comments. Argument threads can be elsewhere or elsewhen, but not here and now.
I just wanted to clarify.
ReplyDeleteYeah, man. Your comment was absolutely fine and cool.
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine how this anything but the worst possible squandering of public interest in Cap, coming right on the heels of several immensely popular films. Cap's brand recognition has never been stronger, and THIS is how they use it?
ReplyDeleteAs a fan, I'm frustrated by the desire to tear down one of the only moral paragons of the Marvel Universe. There are plenty of morally ambiguous and outright evil characters in their stable. This is just a terrible move and I am intensely skeptical that an interesting story could emerge from it.
Cap's supposed to represent the best of the Greatest Generation.
ReplyDeleteThat's my grandfather, who fought in the Pacific Theater.
If Cap is a nazi ... then are they saying someabout about the rest of WW2 veterans?
Jesse Rupp The is and always has been is ridiculous, right. It'd be one (bad) thing to say that as Cap gets old, he's gone senile and evil. That'd be understandable, but the paragon of the USA, who wields the stars and stripes, working for Hitler?
ReplyDeleteNot remotely OK.
Jay Treat Because remember, what's great about super heroes is that they have super awesome powers! Not that they exhibit morality and act as a guiding beacon for us.
ReplyDeleteNah, that's silly talk. They have power, so they are in charge. Because that's what life is: the powerful pushing down the weak.
Brandes Stoddard And, apparently, they've been plotting this for years.
ReplyDeleteThere is a disconnect between the Marvel/DC and enjoyers of comics. I don't always want 4-color, but damnit, I want that to be an option.
Don't give me brooding superman; give me a superman torn between his love of Lois and sense of duty to everyone.
Once that happened, Cap was the sole remaining singularly morally positive force, with no shades of grey. We need that.
I remember the exchange from ... Avengers maybe ... where Loki forces a crowd to kneel, and one man refuses. Cap shows up, and what's he say?
Cap: You know, the last time I was in Germany and saw a man standing above everybody else, we ended up disagreeing.
That's Captain America. He doesn't even need to be a person per say; he is the spirit of freedom. He is the stuff of the best of us (all of us, not just the USA), saying no to tyranny .
If he's a nazi ... then what's the point?
You've possibly already seen this, but here's a great response piece: http://panels.net/2016/05/26/on-steve-rogers-1-antisemitism-and-publicity-stunts/
ReplyDeleteThanks, Brandes Stoddard . I had. And yeah, the article makes the right point: Nazis aren't standard villains. There's a reason the internet has Godwin's Law, and why if you compare your opponent to Hitler you lose.
ReplyDeleteThat's what Marvel just did to Cap, and they lose the argument.
Something to bear in mind that might (I say might) make this easier to respond to with a wry head-shake than an angry fist-shake: Creators don't actually change the core of the character very effectively. Now some comic book artists will get all excited about how they're going to reinvent a character, but it turns out that after a bit of a run, somebody else gets the title and they heave a sigh and return to form. Very few people (Frank Miller, Alan Moore) pull off a real change, and they are justly legend.
ReplyDeleteFolks envision the making of comics as a carefully coordinated endeavour, with oversight and meticulous planning at every stage. But from all the evidence of Stan Lee's letter columns, the bullpen is really more like a bunch of kids in a classroom passing a bunch of developing stories back and forth from one set of grimy, pencil-smudged hands to the next.
So did Marvel screw up? Maybe, on some level. But it's a lot more like the individual creators involved screwed up. Did DC screw up in its portrayal of movie-Superman? I guess ... but Zack Snyder deserves a heaping helping of blame, too.
There's an Avengers story, back in the day, in which an extradimensional being makes Carol Danvers mysteriously pregnant, so that she gives birth to him, and he rapidly develops into a powerful magic adult male ... who then wants Carol to come back with him to his magic sky palace. She says she don't want to, so he waves his hand and magics it so she wants to, and the Avengers are all like "Well, problem solved! See you love-birds around!" and off they go.
Chris Claremont, then head editor, comes around and says "So, that was a great vacation. Let's see what you guys have been up to in my absence. X-Men, very nice, Spiderman, excellent work, Avengers ... uh ... what the HELL? Okay, somebody clear the schedule for the Avengers annual. Book me our best artists. I'm going to start writing." And then he went and had Carol come back and tell the Avengers (essentially) "You total chucklewits, what kind of heroes are YOU to let that guy abuse and abduct me?"
This stuff happens, people rage for a while, then it fades into history, retroactively smoothed into a continuity that remains (like how Cap doesn't have degenerative nerve disease any more, and Superman isn't dead).
Tony Lower-Basch Yes, yes. Its a marketing ploy that turns a jewish-created icon of America into a super nazi.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't the thread for reasonableness. :-)
I can recommend another Steven who wields an indestructible shield and boundless optimism: http://www.themarysue.com/steven-universe-maternal-narrative/ (Relatively spoiler-free. Huge spoiler for episode 52, but Davey's already told you about it. Openly mentions two issues that build over dozens of episodes and aren't readily apparent at the beginning but are at least hinted at in the first two episodes)
ReplyDeleteGeorge Austin The last thing you recommended was Hamilton, and now that's one of my standard work at home tracks. Sure, like I need another of your recommendations .... :-)
ReplyDeleteIt always shocks me to discover there are people who are not already immersed in Steven Universe. How sad and grey their lives must be.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols The Hamilton Soundtrack is (provisionally,because it's so new), number four on my list of all-time favorite pieces of media. Steven Universe is (also provisionally) number two.
ReplyDeleteWhat's number 1 and 3?
ReplyDeleteBoth are deeper down the specific-to-George rabbit hole, so I don't recommend them very often. Three Is more accessible, though (Princess Mononoke by Hayao Miyazaki/Studio Ghibli. Sometimes Kiki's Delivery Service or My Neighbor Totoro will jump way up the list to here or near it, though). Five is often a book/literary thing (Hamlet, The Palm at the End of the Mind, The Hobbit, The Thirteen Clocks, The Tempest), or Yojimbo, The Big Lebowski, or Citizen Kane.
ReplyDeleteHonorable mention currently ongoing comics (to tie back to the subject at hand) include Unbeatable Squirrel Girl and Gotham Academy.
Number one on the list is the Revolutionary Girl Utena TV show, which just happens to be one of the two or three biggest influences on Rebecca Sugar re: Steven Universe.