I don't know what William means when he says it, but when I say something like "There really isn't an RPG industry" I usually mean "Because there are very limited economies of scale to be had in this market, there's no reason I can see that working at one of the 'big' publishers (scare quotes very much intended) teaches you anything more about making good RPGs than working passionately in a small group self-publishing. They're not doing vastly different things, they're just doing them with vastly different advertising budgets and existing marketing relationships. Therefore, the whole idea of a reputation for achievements or contacts 'in the industry' is a fiction made from whole cloth by people who want to be gatekeepers over who gets to be a creative in this field and genre."
Of course, it's possible that, having not myself been employed in those companies, I'm underestimating the hugely different techniques they bring to putting books on the shelves. Still ... I've never seen anyone talking about objective skills like "Experience with Such-and-So specialized RPG-layout tools" when they talk about how some other person has built a reputation in the industry, and therefore should be deferred to. Have you?
Aaron Griffin Yeah, this is the second recent post I've seen that can be interpreted as saying "Calling out bad actors isn't worth it, just ignore it all". It's frustrating when so many people who are underprivileged are literally begging for the white dude contingent to actually help stand up to shitty actors in the community. I'm kind of hoping that isn't what William is meaning here...
Also, saying "There is no industry" really needs an explanation when there obviously /is/ one by most peoples standards. If you are trying to claim a word means something contrary to how the average person uses a word, you need to back that up.
Gotcha - I'm not an 'industry insider' either, but from my seat I imagine you're right in terms of the technical skills. The gnurliest stuff I've seen has to do with trying to get a hardback's cover art into the right color profile for the printing company which seems to be about as black an art as character encoding. (I suspect for the same reasons, too - it's complicated enough that few people are taking the fundamentals seriously, so every now and again there's some horrid incompatibility between two parties' #goodenough approaches that would require one or both to a) learn a lot and b) retool something.)
So.. RPG specific? No, the opposite, it seems to be people with relevant day-job professional skills who are held up as authorities (e.g. John Harper's InDesign and layout chops, or Kevin Crawford's business acumen informing the way he structures his prolific, mostly-one-man operation).
Tony Lower-Basch I don't really understand what you are saying here. If there is no industry, what is it that people who work at WotC and Paizo and even the smaller but still recognizable companies /do./ I mean, how do you refer to what they are doing collectively?
Matt Johnson: They design, market, and sell games ... same as anyone who does it.
Is that an "industry"? I don't know. Sounds like a question of how you want to apply the word. But if you're trying to apply the word to distinguish from the same activity, as practiced by somebody who just decides one afternoon "Hey, I've got a game idea I want to publish," then I'd be interested to know where the distinction arises.
As an example, in the software sphere (which I know more broadly) for a long time, there really was a distinction in terms of tools, economies of scale, etc. The big houses were doing different stuff than the little shops. There were all sorts of details about infrastructure, version management, code repositories ... lots of technical skills you learned by doing, which any big company would be forced to teach you, and which were largely unknown to the little shops. [ Note: That's changed, but I don't want the tangent to consume my post. ]
Back then, it made sense on some level for big companies to gatekeep who they worked with. Taking on somebody with no "industry experience" meant an extensive ramp-up time for them, no matter how good they were in small-shop programming. And, because of that gatekeeping, it made sense for people to zealously guard their own reputation within the "industry," and keep their network within those with similar skills.
I just really don't see any similar distinction of skills in what people call the RPG Industry. And in the absence of that distinction, a lot of the behaviors (particularly around reputation and gatekeeping) that people justify because of the industry ... they don't seem justified.
There are, of course, plenty of other ways to use the same term, and so I worry that I leave myself at risk of saying something that will, quite naturally, be taken as an attack on somebody's achievements or efforts. I'd love to hear how you're thinking of the term, and what hearing "there is no industry" feels like to you.
There's also no RPG industry because there's no there there: the moneys are tiny, and scale miniscule. We have, at best, some people who are paid to participate in the conversation because we value what they say.
And that's it. "Boycotting" doesn't really make sense in a traditional sense, as if you are relying on indie RPGs for your income, then you are already living in poverty.
Not buying from assholes? Sure. Absolutely. I don't buy from voldemort, and I look askance at those who do and ask them if they know that he's a dickbag. Sure.
I hate the idea that we're an industry. RPGs are too small, and don't really get anything from economies of scale other than slightly-lower printing costs and the value of marketing.
And why should we yearn to be part of an industry? Industries are garbage. I'm part of the RPG hobby. Or RPG scene. Not the fucking industry.
PS: I mostly disagree with William's first statement. I think it's probably the smartest thing for your own mental health to do to block and disengage with people who are shitbags, most of the time, but for some people, at some times, in some circumstances, doing that can feel like aiding a bully in beating you up. I'd never ask that of anyone.
And, I mean: There's not really any such thing as the RPG industry.
ReplyDeleteMeaning that RPG production is a phenomenon that can occur on disjoint groups, rather than thinking of it as a single community?
ReplyDeleteWhat about calling out shitbag behavior publicly? I thought this was a thing those with privilege were supposed to do.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what William means when he says it, but when I say something like "There really isn't an RPG industry" I usually mean "Because there are very limited economies of scale to be had in this market, there's no reason I can see that working at one of the 'big' publishers (scare quotes very much intended) teaches you anything more about making good RPGs than working passionately in a small group self-publishing. They're not doing vastly different things, they're just doing them with vastly different advertising budgets and existing marketing relationships. Therefore, the whole idea of a reputation for achievements or contacts 'in the industry' is a fiction made from whole cloth by people who want to be gatekeepers over who gets to be a creative in this field and genre."
ReplyDeleteOf course, it's possible that, having not myself been employed in those companies, I'm underestimating the hugely different techniques they bring to putting books on the shelves. Still ... I've never seen anyone talking about objective skills like "Experience with Such-and-So specialized RPG-layout tools" when they talk about how some other person has built a reputation in the industry, and therefore should be deferred to. Have you?
Aaron Griffin Yeah, this is the second recent post I've seen that can be interpreted as saying "Calling out bad actors isn't worth it, just ignore it all". It's frustrating when so many people who are underprivileged are literally begging for the white dude contingent to actually help stand up to shitty actors in the community. I'm kind of hoping that isn't what William is meaning here...
ReplyDeleteAlso, saying "There is no industry" really needs an explanation when there obviously /is/ one by most peoples standards. If you are trying to claim a word means something contrary to how the average person uses a word, you need to back that up.
Gotcha - I'm not an 'industry insider' either, but from my seat I imagine you're right in terms of the technical skills. The gnurliest stuff I've seen has to do with trying to get a hardback's cover art into the right color profile for the printing company which seems to be about as black an art as character encoding. (I suspect for the same reasons, too - it's complicated enough that few people are taking the fundamentals seriously, so every now and again there's some horrid incompatibility between two parties' #goodenough approaches that would require one or both to a) learn a lot and b) retool something.)
ReplyDeleteSo.. RPG specific? No, the opposite, it seems to be people with relevant day-job professional skills who are held up as authorities (e.g. John Harper's InDesign and layout chops, or Kevin Crawford's business acumen informing the way he structures his prolific, mostly-one-man operation).
Tony Lower-Basch I don't really understand what you are saying here. If there is no industry, what is it that people who work at WotC and Paizo and even the smaller but still recognizable companies /do./ I mean, how do you refer to what they are doing collectively?
ReplyDeleteMatt Johnson: They design, market, and sell games ... same as anyone who does it.
ReplyDeleteIs that an "industry"? I don't know. Sounds like a question of how you want to apply the word. But if you're trying to apply the word to distinguish from the same activity, as practiced by somebody who just decides one afternoon "Hey, I've got a game idea I want to publish," then I'd be interested to know where the distinction arises.
As an example, in the software sphere (which I know more broadly) for a long time, there really was a distinction in terms of tools, economies of scale, etc. The big houses were doing different stuff than the little shops. There were all sorts of details about infrastructure, version management, code repositories ... lots of technical skills you learned by doing, which any big company would be forced to teach you, and which were largely unknown to the little shops. [ Note: That's changed, but I don't want the tangent to consume my post. ]
Back then, it made sense on some level for big companies to gatekeep who they worked with. Taking on somebody with no "industry experience" meant an extensive ramp-up time for them, no matter how good they were in small-shop programming. And, because of that gatekeeping, it made sense for people to zealously guard their own reputation within the "industry," and keep their network within those with similar skills.
I just really don't see any similar distinction of skills in what people call the RPG Industry. And in the absence of that distinction, a lot of the behaviors (particularly around reputation and gatekeeping) that people justify because of the industry ... they don't seem justified.
There are, of course, plenty of other ways to use the same term, and so I worry that I leave myself at risk of saying something that will, quite naturally, be taken as an attack on somebody's achievements or efforts. I'd love to hear how you're thinking of the term, and what hearing "there is no industry" feels like to you.
I would also add: calling them out; not buying or promoting their stuff.
ReplyDelete(I see Aaron Griffin already suggested that.)
ReplyDeleteIf you don't have them blocked and see them being shitbags? Then FOR SURE call out that shitty behavior. Block, and recommend that others do the same.
ReplyDeleteIf they are bullying someone, send accoladres t the bullied person -- private or public, whatever -- and get them to block the bully.
There's also no RPG industry because there's no there there: the moneys are tiny, and scale miniscule. We have, at best, some people who are paid to participate in the conversation because we value what they say.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's it. "Boycotting" doesn't really make sense in a traditional sense, as if you are relying on indie RPGs for your income, then you are already living in poverty.
Not buying from assholes? Sure. Absolutely. I don't buy from voldemort, and I look askance at those who do and ask them if they know that he's a dickbag. Sure.
That's not a boycott. This isn't a bus system.
And, of course: If you feel safe engaging on my public post to tell me I'm wrong?
ReplyDeleteThen I hereby deputize you to go out and tell shit baggers that they are shitty.
I notice everyone who has commented has a few things in common.
This means you. You don't have to -- there's other things going on in life -- but you have the safety to do so.
I hate the idea that we're an industry. RPGs are too small, and don't really get anything from economies of scale other than slightly-lower printing costs and the value of marketing.
ReplyDeleteAnd why should we yearn to be part of an industry? Industries are garbage. I'm part of the RPG hobby. Or RPG scene. Not the fucking industry.
PS: I mostly disagree with William's first statement. I think it's probably the smartest thing for your own mental health to do to block and disengage with people who are shitbags, most of the time, but for some people, at some times, in some circumstances, doing that can feel like aiding a bully in beating you up. I'd never ask that of anyone.
Robert Bohl Consider yourself deputized to go out and call shitbaggers on their shit. I hereby give you the permission you do not need.
ReplyDeleteYeah I'm on that already :). Just addressing a point I saw to quibble with.
ReplyDelete#FuckTheIndustry