I'm confused, William. I feel like I answered your question and I'm being asked to answer it again. I don't have a deeply held definition for "dude." If that guy asked me that question, and all I had was that list, I'd say, "It looks like you can't play a cis man, but other people who were assigned male gender at birth may be possible."
Taking the list literally, I don't see cis male. Also taking it literally, Transgender allows you to identify your own gender, so yes. Dudes are available. Is there a reason cis male is not an option within the game?
If you give the users a story reason that this is the case, it's fine. If you leave it for them to invent, I would not be a fan of that, personally.
The IP that this springs to mind as resembling is The Wheel of Time - prior to the start of the books, there was a longstanding cultural convention of magically lobotomizing men who could use magic. As the series progresses, this continues to seem like a pretty good idea, because everyone with magic is basically an idiot, but the men are much worse idiots.
William Nichols In other games I've runwhere the options where generally only Male/Female if a player wanted to do something else I'd let 'em. If your list of allowances has some in game reason sure that's fine, but if you're being exclusionary just to be exclusionary then it's just as bullshit as saying "Women can't be Paladins because sexism."
I said NO as a kneejerk (humorous possibly only to me) reaction to the "whataboutthemens" question because of course, what ABOUT those mens, my goodness, what a glaring omission to make, whatever shall we do without them.
As an academic exercise, leave cis men out. See how it goes. If you can't not be a cis man even when you're a reality bending ruler of all creation, WHY do you suppose that is?
I removed one option for each playbook. The mage lost cis men, because it tickled me to do so. Similarly, there's different species options for each playbook. not everyone class can be an elf or a halfling. Everyone can be a human.
Yanni Cooper Oh, there's a reason. It tickeld me. Besides, mage's lives are relatively easy, see. And in this game, cis men are never the privileged category.
William Nichols that makes more sense. Which makes it even MORE an interesting question: if nobody said anything about a missing gender in the other playbooks, why did people say "hey, where's cis men?" in the playbook that's usually considered to be learned, smart, or mystical? That's a big HMMMM to me.
Uh, there are enough genders listed here that you're describing a test to make sure the reader remembers all of them, and drawing super judgy conclusions about them for failing.
Its on the sheet. In front of you. I'd never expect players to remember things that aren't in front of them, except maybe to roll 2d6 and add a modifier.
From what you've got there, it seems to me that they can't identify as dudes (which I'm fine with, because I can't see a wizard identifying their gender as anything but "wizard"), but there's nothing to stop them from performing "dude."
So, what I'd say is... I kind of feel like in the spirit of the question being asked the answer is "No". I also feel like you'd really have to go back to the asker and ask them for a more specific definition of what they mean by dude before you give a reasonable answer.
I also have to remind myself that this game is about privilege and paying the rent, because restrictions like this (gender, race, etc.) always annoy me in games... I don't care that dudes can't be wizards, I care that anyone is restricted fro many class by their anything.
First thought, not having read the rest of the responses, but... Sometimes I'm a dude. Not always. But sometimes. (I'm Genderqueer - genderfluid - nonbinary masculine, for context.)
Not everyone agrees that counts, by the way. A lot of people don't think I'm valid as nonbinary if I say that. So. shrug
(also not all trans people are trans women or even trans binary, but w/e)
Brie Sheldon do you find anything on this list problematic?
I realize and freely admit this is an imperfect lost. I think I may have stolen most of it. If you see anything that strikes you as wrong, lemme know!?!
As an important piece of information, the instruction to the player is "pick as many as apply", such that one could choose fluid non binary cis woman, though as mc is ask some questions.
As far as definitions and what you should include or anything significantly wrong, I legit only do that kind of input for cash, William Nichols. Recent bad experiences have shown me that I can only really consult on that professionally. I will say that saying you're fluid and nonbinary can - to some people - be considered contradictory to being cis.
Rabbit Stoddard :D high five I only just finalized mine to they/he once I'd tried out any fluid pronouns for a while. It fits me a lot better and I feel much more myself!
Weird thoughts of game design going through my head on using words like dude, bro, and brah for character identity. What other terms belong on this list i.e. should hottie be considered? What about other more loaded words? Do these terms have to have gender insinuation. This is spurned on by noticing a lot of examples and counter examples in this thread sound like DnD multiclassing. I might post later if this coalesces into a coherent thought or game design.
I'm going to be in an RPG most of the rest of the night.
As such, I leave all of you with this single rule: Behave.
By which I mean, in part: Be generous and kind to each other. And if someone is not being so to you, then please remember that you are more important than this conversation.
Of course gender matters to people, but does it matter for what professions they can be.At least that's how I interpreted what John said... maybe not.
So, one of the things i'm wondering about is /why/ the gender restrictions. I mean, I get game wise you want to deal with privilege etc. But in the world, why does this matter? Is it literally cis-men are unable to be mages, or is it a cultural taboo you are emulating with rules?
Gender does matter to professions in fiction/games in the same way it matters in real life. Until recently, you could not be combat arms in the US military if you were a woman. You can't be a nun if you are a man. There are, whether it's positive or negative, occupational roles that are gender exclusive, and while yes, William should justify it fictionally, saying it's irrelevant or that it shouldn't be considered is shortsighted.
Considering the employment and education restrictions and discrimination that have been placed on people who aren't straight, white, cis men (not forgetting needing to be able, of acceptable religious preference, and of the right socioeconomic class) throughout history (and present), I feel like saying that gender, race, orientation, and so on, are not a factor indicates a lack of awareness of reality and fiction.
I'm with Brie Sheldon on this one. While it might be nice to say that gender doesn't have any relevance to profession, that's a fictional luxury that we can choose to design for, not a reflection of reality. Given that it's a choice to do so, it's also a choice to add gender as a dynamic within professions.
Stepping back from the discussion of gender and looking at the ruleset, I see words like "playbook" used and other indicators that this is a PbtA game.
The thing about Apocalypse World is you're not limited to the terms for name and look presented in the playbooks. Sure, they guide you to the implied setting of the game, but if you really want your Hocus to be called Deacon or Apostate or The Burger King? Yeah, you can choose one of those as the name.
So to your initial question, yeah, mages can be cis male. The game didn't give them that option because it wants to see if they'll just take what's been given.
Stepping back like Thomas Deeny said, as a pure mechanical structure the purpose of a pick list in game design is to provide a series of constraints to someone.
A list is normally about a series of OR statements (but could be "AND" if explicit). If this game doesn't care how you define your gender, than I'd not get specific at all and just say "fill in here" and maybe list a series of terms to show that you want to accept anything someone wants to use.
If you're providing a constraint on gender and class within the conceit of your games universe and you are using as much of the terminology as you seem to be, perhaps it's easier to say what classes CAN'T BE than the many permutations of could be.
The statement: Mages in this world cannot be Dudes
Would seem to answer more questions than having a long and varied list with terms that can often overlap to various degrees to a large audience. This way if the reader identifies their concept as a "dude" for whatever reason, then they would know the rules of the game are telling them that they cannot be a Mage.
Thomas Deeny I think that kind of list is typically inherit within the system but at either rate should be addressed within the core text not duplicated constantly.
That's a good point. When designing a PbtA game, one doesn't have to recreate the exact template found in Apocalypse World -- use what's necessary for one's game.
Tony Lower-Basch Its the Mage. I don't want to do all the work for the players. Some struggle is essential. But, they now have a coven and a mentor, and spell components, and nary a dagger or staff to be seen.
NO.
ReplyDeleteI don't see why not.
ReplyDeleteWell, two people with two very different answers. Maybe explain it to each other?
ReplyDeleteI'd love to see 'non-dude male' and 'dude' presented as gender options somewhere. Feels like it would definitely fit into a Buffyverse game...
ReplyDeleteIt's your RPG, you can put whatever restrictions you want right? What does that limitation get you?
ReplyDeleteI'd interpret that list to mean no cis men.
ReplyDeleteRobert Bohl And does that mean no dudes? Why or why not?
ReplyDeleteI'm confused, William. I feel like I answered your question and I'm being asked to answer it again. I don't have a deeply held definition for "dude." If that guy asked me that question, and all I had was that list, I'd say, "It looks like you can't play a cis man, but other people who were assigned male gender at birth may be possible."
ReplyDelete.
ReplyDeleteRobert Bohl indeed, so the question is: are all dude's cis men? That's what I'm trying to get folk to engage on.
ReplyDeleteSandy J-T, Yanni Cooper You two had opposite answers. Want to expand?
ReplyDeleteThe honest answer is I don't care, because I don't know what a dude is.
ReplyDeleteTell me what "dude" means and I'll tell you if mages can be dudes.
ReplyDeleteTaking the list literally, I don't see cis male. Also taking it literally, Transgender allows you to identify your own gender, so yes. Dudes are available. Is there a reason cis male is not an option within the game?
ReplyDeleteClearly you can play a transdude. Transdudes are dudes. QED.
ReplyDelete(I am amused no one from the "dude is gender neutral" crowd has popped in yet with an emphatic "YES, DUH.")
ReplyDeleteAddendum: The Cleric, Thief, and Fighter lists all include cis male.
ReplyDeleteIf you give the users a story reason that this is the case, it's fine. If you leave it for them to invent, I would not be a fan of that, personally.
ReplyDeleteThe IP that this springs to mind as resembling is The Wheel of Time - prior to the start of the books, there was a longstanding cultural convention of magically lobotomizing men who could use magic. As the series progresses, this continues to seem like a pretty good idea, because everyone with magic is basically an idiot, but the men are much worse idiots.
William Nichols In other games I've runwhere the options where generally only Male/Female if a player wanted to do something else I'd let 'em. If your list of allowances has some in game reason sure that's fine, but if you're being exclusionary just to be exclusionary then it's just as bullshit as saying "Women can't be Paladins because sexism."
ReplyDeleteI said NO as a kneejerk (humorous possibly only to me) reaction to the "whataboutthemens" question because of course, what ABOUT those mens, my goodness, what a glaring omission to make, whatever shall we do without them.
ReplyDeleteAs an academic exercise, leave cis men out. See how it goes. If you can't not be a cis man even when you're a reality bending ruler of all creation, WHY do you suppose that is?
I removed one option for each playbook. The mage lost cis men, because it tickled me to do so. Similarly, there's different species options for each playbook. not everyone class can be an elf or a halfling. Everyone can be a human.
ReplyDeleteYanni Cooper Oh, there's a reason. It tickeld me. Besides, mage's lives are relatively easy, see. And in this game, cis men are never the privileged category.
ReplyDeleteIs it a problem that I don't understand half of the entries?
ReplyDeleteKarl Larsson Not really. Would you like to know what any of those mean, so far as I understand them? Which is, admittedly, limited.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols that makes more sense. Which makes it even MORE an interesting question: if nobody said anything about a missing gender in the other playbooks, why did people say "hey, where's cis men?" in the playbook that's usually considered to be learned, smart, or mystical? That's a big HMMMM to me.
ReplyDeleteI'm friends with at least one genderqueer dude, so, yes. Definitively.
ReplyDeleteUh, there are enough genders listed here that you're describing a test to make sure the reader remembers all of them, and drawing super judgy conclusions about them for failing.
ReplyDeleteBrandes Stoddard ?
ReplyDeleteIts on the sheet. In front of you. I'd never expect players to remember things that aren't in front of them, except maybe to roll 2d6 and add a modifier.
The antecedent of "you" is Sandy J-T in my comment immediately prior.
ReplyDeleteIf HMMM is judgy, bar exams would be a cinch. Tapping out, I ain't got time for the Court.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols I'm curious as to why everyone can be human, or conversely, why humans can be anything?
ReplyDelete(Not having read any previous comments)
ReplyDeleteI take this partly to indicate that scholarly magic is, in this world, considered a soft feminine art. Real Men (tm) are not wizards.
Rabbit Stoddard tradition, mostly. When classes were limited by race, humans could be in any so far as I remember.
ReplyDeleteAlso, humans in this are never the privileged group, so.....
From what you've got there, it seems to me that they can't identify as dudes (which I'm fine with, because I can't see a wizard identifying their gender as anything but "wizard"), but there's nothing to stop them from performing "dude."
ReplyDeleteBut, of course, you are a Stoddard so you probably know more about old versions of Dnd than I ever could
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols I'm sure I'll manage with google. I've read some queer and gender literature in Norwegian, but most of these terms didn't come up.
ReplyDeleteSo, what I'd say is... I kind of feel like in the spirit of the question being asked the answer is "No". I also feel like you'd really have to go back to the asker and ask them for a more specific definition of what they mean by dude before you give a reasonable answer.
ReplyDeleteI also have to remind myself that this game is about privilege and paying the rent, because restrictions like this (gender, race, etc.) always annoy me in games... I don't care that dudes can't be wizards, I care that anyone is restricted fro many class by their anything.
First thought, not having read the rest of the responses, but... Sometimes I'm a dude. Not always. But sometimes. (I'm Genderqueer - genderfluid - nonbinary masculine, for context.)
ReplyDeleteNot everyone agrees that counts, by the way. A lot of people don't think I'm valid as nonbinary if I say that. So. shrug
(also not all trans people are trans women or even trans binary, but w/e)
They can present however they like.
ReplyDeleteBrie Sheldon do you find anything on this list problematic?
ReplyDeleteI realize and freely admit this is an imperfect lost. I think I may have stolen most of it. If you see anything that strikes you as wrong, lemme know!?!
As an important piece of information, the instruction to the player is "pick as many as apply", such that one could choose fluid non binary cis woman, though as mc is ask some questions.
As far as definitions and what you should include or anything significantly wrong, I legit only do that kind of input for cash, William Nichols. Recent bad experiences have shown me that I can only really consult on that professionally. I will say that saying you're fluid and nonbinary can - to some people - be considered contradictory to being cis.
ReplyDeleteOk! I'm not currently budgeted to spend money on this project, do maybe when I am!
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols indeed, and Brandes Stoddard has endured many of my rants on human defaultism through the editions. ;)
ReplyDeleteBrie Sheldon genderqueer high-fives. (I'm ambivalently gendered and answer to any pronoun save, "it".)
ReplyDeleteRabbit Stoddard :D high five I only just finalized mine to they/he once I'd tried out any fluid pronouns for a while. It fits me a lot better and I feel much more myself!
ReplyDeleteWeird thoughts of game design going through my head on using words like dude, bro, and brah for character identity. What other terms belong on this list i.e. should hottie be considered? What about other more loaded words? Do these terms have to have gender insinuation. This is spurned on by noticing a lot of examples and counter examples in this thread sound like DnD multiclassing. I might post later if this coalesces into a coherent thought or game design.
ReplyDelete...You just said they were a person. Gender - or lack thereof - matters to people.
ReplyDeletesigh.
I'm going to be in an RPG most of the rest of the night.
ReplyDeleteAs such, I leave all of you with this single rule: Behave.
By which I mean, in part: Be generous and kind to each other. And if someone is not being so to you, then please remember that you are more important than this conversation.
Of course gender matters to people, but does it matter for what professions they can be.At least that's how I interpreted what John said... maybe not.
ReplyDeleteSo, one of the things i'm wondering about is /why/ the gender restrictions. I mean, I get game wise you want to deal with privilege etc. But in the world, why does this matter? Is it literally cis-men are unable to be mages, or is it a cultural taboo you are emulating with rules?
Gender does matter to professions in fiction/games in the same way it matters in real life. Until recently, you could not be combat arms in the US military if you were a woman. You can't be a nun if you are a man. There are, whether it's positive or negative, occupational roles that are gender exclusive, and while yes, William should justify it fictionally, saying it's irrelevant or that it shouldn't be considered is shortsighted.
ReplyDeleteConsidering the employment and education restrictions and discrimination that have been placed on people who aren't straight, white, cis men (not forgetting needing to be able, of acceptable religious preference, and of the right socioeconomic class) throughout history (and present), I feel like saying that gender, race, orientation, and so on, are not a factor indicates a lack of awareness of reality and fiction.
Peace, bro.
ReplyDeleteI'm with Brie Sheldon on this one. While it might be nice to say that gender doesn't have any relevance to profession, that's a fictional luxury that we can choose to design for, not a reflection of reality. Given that it's a choice to do so, it's also a choice to add gender as a dynamic within professions.
ReplyDeleteStepping back from the discussion of gender and looking at the ruleset, I see words like "playbook" used and other indicators that this is a PbtA game.
ReplyDeleteThe thing about Apocalypse World is you're not limited to the terms for name and look presented in the playbooks. Sure, they guide you to the implied setting of the game, but if you really want your Hocus to be called Deacon or Apostate or The Burger King? Yeah, you can choose one of those as the name.
So to your initial question, yeah, mages can be cis male. The game didn't give them that option because it wants to see if they'll just take what's been given.
Thomas Deeny good point!
ReplyDeleteStepping back like Thomas Deeny said, as a pure mechanical structure the purpose of a pick list in game design is to provide a series of constraints to someone.
ReplyDeleteA list is normally about a series of OR statements (but could be "AND" if explicit). If this game doesn't care how you define your gender, than I'd not get specific at all and just say "fill in here" and maybe list a series of terms to show that you want to accept anything someone wants to use.
If you're providing a constraint on gender and class within the conceit of your games universe and you are using as much of the terminology as you seem to be, perhaps it's easier to say what classes CAN'T BE than the many permutations of could be.
The statement:
Mages in this world cannot be Dudes
Would seem to answer more questions than having a long and varied list with terms that can often overlap to various degrees to a large audience. This way if the reader identifies their concept as a "dude" for whatever reason, then they would know the rules of the game are telling them that they cannot be a Mage.
Mark Richardson, don't get me started on how some PbtA games give you a list of options ending with ", _______".
ReplyDeleteThomas Deeny I think that kind of list is typically inherit within the system but at either rate should be addressed within the core text not duplicated constantly.
ReplyDeleteThat's a good point. When designing a PbtA game, one doesn't have to recreate the exact template found in Apocalypse World -- use what's necessary for one's game.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols: Remind me again why this playbook is called Magus rather than Witch?
ReplyDeleteTony Lower-Basch Its the Mage. I don't want to do all the work for the players. Some struggle is essential. But, they now have a coven and a mentor, and spell components, and nary a dagger or staff to be seen.
ReplyDeleteI don't see why mages can't be dudes without changing the list
ReplyDeleteAt first I thought this was a comment about The Watch.
ReplyDeleteT. Franzke Nothing explicitly about The Watch here. Just a hack with quite a bit of drift.
ReplyDelete