Excel: Best Microsoft program, or only program keeping the company afloat?
The ridiculously wide range of functionality makes this thing super useful. There's everything from using it as a grid with color-coding, data reporting, and even insert into SQL tables.
Outlook is awful. MS Word makes me furious. I guess SQL Server, but there are alternatives to the MS version. Just about everything else can be replaced with free version, cloud services, or *nix instances.
But not excel. Not quite. Because Google Sheets is intolerably slow, and can't do what Excel can do.
Love to hear other view points. What am i missing?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
five votes and no comments? That is strange.
ReplyDeleteWindows is pretty awesome, especially wrt backwards compatibility.
ReplyDeleteI'm a programmer, a Mac owner, and a UNIX guru. I also am a big fan of MS Office products. For my money, they're the best products on the market.
ReplyDeleteThe free versions you talk about don't hold a candle to the real ones. MS Word is incredible. I routinely do light layout in it, and I prefer its Reviewing mode for all editing projects. MS Outlook is the best mail program I've ever used, and I've used a lot. Excel is fucking amazing. PowerPoint is strong, but I wouldn't bet against other contenders in the space. Visio is one of the top programs of its kind (and was acquired, not developed in-house).
I'm not fond of SQL Server, but I don't include it as part of Office. I'd rather use PostgreSQL, which is free, bullet proof, and relatively low-hassle.
MS Access is a big pile of crap, but I suppose it's good for small db-like projects, until it suddenly isn't.
Ted Cabeen The backwards compatability of the OS is super useful; and according to scuttlebut, one reason they are skipping Windows 9; a lot of code, both internal to MS and external, references windows version 9x, to keep compatibility to 90s versions.
ReplyDeleteThat's rumor, but it sounds reasonable.
Adam Dray That is the first nice thing I've heard a coder say about Word. I suppose mileage can very there. I rage quit word about once a week, and move a doc into Excel.
ReplyDeleteI find Outlook depressingly awful in comparison to gmail; what do you find good there?
The use case I've seen for Access is as a front-end to SQL, to do small updates. What's another solution for that problem?
Your perspective intrigues me. I find it very strange!
Microsoft is NOT backwards compatible as you think in regards to Windows.
ReplyDeleteI've got a stack of software that was made for Windows XP that won't run correctly under Windows 7 never mind the later editions. The compatible mode is trash when you go to 64 bit systems for anything earlier.
Oh and the same happens with peripherals. I had to toss nearly a thousand dollars worth of hardware that was perfectly fine under XP that won't run under Win 7 or 8 etc as it won't use the drivers that came with them and won't run them with the drivers etc that are available for the newer versions of windows. Complete waste of good gear.
ReplyDelete(Yeah, 3 years later and I'm still bitter about it. They did the same thing to me when we went from Win98 to XP many years ago).
I like to run software and hardware until it dies a natural death, not have it artificially forced on me when to retire it because the company wants more money.
And yes I do the same with TVs and such. Still using a TV for watching DVDs thats 20 years old... and a radio that's 25 years old.
Joseph Teller, I understand the frustration, but I don't think you can lie that problem at the feet of Microsoft. That hardware will still run fine under XP. Microsoft supported windows XP for 13.5 years. That's significantly longer than any other consumer operating system vendor. They also produced copious documentation about how drivers should be updated for each version of windows.
ReplyDeleteI think the fault lies at the feet of the original hardware vendor, not Microsoft. That vendor could certainly produce current drivers for their hardware. They just choose not to, likely because, as you not, they want more money.
Microsoft even goes a step further and produces or maintains drivers for common devices. There are drivers in Windows 10 for HP Laserjet printers going back to the 80s.
No other vendor provides this level of support. Linux does a reasonable job with widely-used hardware, thanks to enthusiasts, but does nothing for custom hardware. Apple is the worst, dropping support for entire swaths of the active marketplace after only a few years.
As for software with problems on Windows 7, have you tried XP Mode? The few times we've run into backwards compatibility problems with old software on Windows 7+, XP mode has resolved the issue.
Yes I've tried the supposed backwards compatibility modes for Win 7 to Xp. The programs won't even load, they crash at load under that system. They will run for a short time under the regular mode (non-XP) and crash somewhere along the way with errors that Windows say that they are violating memory areas that are protected.... that means that Microsoft Windows is using those memory areas that previously were not used in the earlier mode, and that means a LOT of software will not run that used to.
ReplyDeleteYes, there is some vendor responsibility for some systems and drivers, but in other cases its Windows that blocks the old drivers, and that again is often based on memory slots that used to be for software it now blocks.
Sure we're talking old software and hardware (not computers, as I learned long ago NOT to install a new operating system on a Windows machine made for a previous version, as the result is a waste of time).
I've been using computers since 1978 (long before most folks) and been thru a lot of the ups and downs of the industry and how it affects the individual over the years.
I know what Backwards compatibility is in the industry and I'm saying Windows is not it (pretty much the ONLY software that I know of that stays truly backwards compatible is Word Perfect. It will load and run a document in the current version and keep all the formating etc from back to at least the version that was running under Windows 95 and probably all the way back thru the versions of DOS).
I also can't blame publishers/manufacturers that are no longer in the computer field when MS changes its memory structure and limits.
People stuck with XP because it worked and was stable. Nearly all the versions between XP and 7 were unstable which is why many individuals and companies stayed with XP.
I went from XP to a MAC (which also ran XP in a dual boot system). Ran a MAC Notebook for nearly 5 years until the hardware wore out. Then I returned to a PC because they were less expensive. My PC is now into its 4th year and I will not replace it until it won't run and can't be maintained for less than the cost of a comparable replacement..
Claiming backwards compatibility that isn't there is to me false marketing. Again a stack of software that ran under XP and which won't run or crashes tells me that its not... especially when it has to do with memory allocation and protection of registers problems. Compatible does mean "can be tinkered with and repatched to maybe run under this op system". It is either compatible backwards as is (or with a simple update from MS of a driver) or it isn't and is not compatible.
Joseph Teller Hi. I'm going to ask you to be a bit less combative. Ted Cabeen isn't here representing Microsoft, he's giving reality as he experiences it. You're doing the same. Neither perspective is wrong.
ReplyDeletePersonally, the oldest piece of computer hardware I own is a laptop that's maybe 3 years old -- and its a chromebook. But, then, part of my minimalism is to discard things that cause my annoyance.
XP Mode is not a Compatibility option. It's a complete Windows XP VM running in a window. It's ability to interface with hardware is impacted by the virtualization, but it can work when the compatibility options don't. It's only available in Pro, and has to be specifically installed, but it might help you.
ReplyDeleteI haven't had the experience you have had with new windows and older hardware. Windows 7 runs great on my systems that were built for XP, and Windows 8.1 runs fine on systems built for 7. I plan to upgrade my XP->7 machine to Windows 10 in August, and I don't expect any problems, These are mainstream business-class machines (Lenovo and Dell), with long-standing support from their manufactures, so the ideal situation. One of the reasons I recommend spending a little more for business-class machines (Thinkpad, or Dell Optiplex) is the extended hardware support.
As for MS changing things, I understand your frustration, but I'd like to know what alternative you're proposing. PC hardware changes, and improves. Choices that made sense when architecting Windows XP for Pentium III processors with 1GB of RAM don't make sense when designing Windows 10 for Core i7 CPUs with 1TB of RAM. Eventually MS needs to change how things work. Are you saying that we should use the same RAM model in 2010 as was designed in 1995 for an order of magnitude more RAM? You've probably read Raymond Chen's The Old New Thing blog, but if not, check it out. Seeing how the sausage is made at MS has given me a lot of perspective for the choices they've made over the years. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/
If you have a 4-year old PC, I would be willing to bet that it will run Windows 10 next week, and will continue to run Windows 10 until the end of support on October 14, 2025. That's 14 years of supported use, all free.
I'm not trying to be combative, William Nichols I'm stating my experiences which go back a LOT further with the company, how it treats its customer base and where the problems with its claims for compatibility come in.
ReplyDeleteI am also not saying anyone else is doing it better, from the operating side of things. I just don't have any illusions on how these businesses operate. You have to be vigilant, realize that you're not going to necessarily be able to load that file you saved important data into 5 or 10 years later (or even be able to read the media its stored on).
MS only kept up XP support for as long as they did because they had government contracts that required them to do so. When you do business with the military that happens, you can't walk away from their contracts in the middle of the service/support period and they demand longer maintenance to consider a system to be adapted to widespread use.
I am not in anyway trying to say that Ted Cabeen is in any way involved with the company or trying to blame him, just relaying my experience of many decades dealing with computers and the industry.
I have the disadvantage of being around longer and being more jaded by the experiences.
I started learning on computers in the days of the DEC PDP-11, was in the last class in my High School where learning to program meant learning how to Keypunch a deck of cards in Fortran to submit a program and my college days were when FORTRAN and COBOL were the 'High Level Languages' that you needed certification in to work in the computer field.
Ted Cabeen I don't have Pro on my laptop, that was not an affordable option when I bought it from the vendor, its running Home Premium. And again, if they had said that was necessary for actual compatibility back when I bought it that would have been a concern (I was rushed on purchase back then due to circumstances and the need for Win 7 and to avoid Win 8, and avoiding Win 8 from all accounts I've heard was a good call).
ReplyDeleteWhat would be ideal would be a Sandbox option for running older programs in an internalized emulator that remapped the memory to deal with these sorts of issues, if they wanted to claim compatibility. Obviously this should be possible, since to some extent that is what MAC OS does when it runs a Windows operating system in a dual boot design.
Of course I also don't trust their support claim dates they are making for Windows 10. The 5 and 5 scheme sounds good. but it basically is no different than what they have now. And it depends on the OEM being still in business and is supporting Windows 10.... and that is the poison pill in the plan. If the OEM only offers a 3 year warranty on their system or peripheral (and companies dump models all the time), guess what happens? Yeah.
And guys remember, this is way long end of the tail stuff. I'm guessing most home laptops aren't kept 10+ years. Probably 5 years is the norm. And, really, anything beyond 3 seems sluggish.
ReplyDeletewhy not just budget for a new $300 laptop every 3 years? Is $100 a year for computer equipment really too much?
Joseph Teller I think XP Mode may fit your needs here. It's pretty much exactly what you're looking for. The Home Edition of Windows has always been a discount version with fewer features than Pro or Enterprise. In this case, you are getting what you pay for.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols I don't think this is long end of the tail stuff anymore. People are keeping computers a lot longer than 10 years ago, and I think that's going to remain the case. Software CPU requirements have not gone up a lot in the last 5 years, and SSDs finally have outpaced I/O requirements. A 3 year old system with an SSD and 4GB of memory doesn't feel sluggish to me at all.
As for replacing devices every 3 years -- I have a couple of problems with that. It's wasteful; $300 PCs are junk, with low-res screens and shoddy components; migrating from one system to another takes time that I don't have. I'd much rather buy a $700 machine and replace it every 6-7 years. Although some OEMs are fly-by-night, I would be shocked if Lenovo or Dell weren't around supporting Optiplex and Thinkpad machines in 10 years, not to mention 5-7. As Joesph notes, they have government and large enterprise contracts that require extended support for those machines.
Ted Cabeen is right, a $300 machine would never run the software I use (would not I suspect even work well with the Word Perfect I use for my office software, never mind anything graphics intensive). At $300 its likely to be an Android Clone.
ReplyDeleteI paid $1100 for my laptop 4 years ago (still a lot less than what I paid for the Macbook Pro it replaced). Its a 64bit system by Asus and was their second tier gaming machine at the time I bought it with 8Gig of Ram, decent speed etc (no solid state drive though, they showed were only on the 1st tier machines at the time).
And software does upgrade need.... if you game on a machine you better have a secondary graphics card for such built in (like this does) and a good cooling system as Laptops are notorious for overheating and shutting themselves down rapidly. I posted about some of my problems and help I got from local techs when this started being a problem for me previously here on google a few months back.
You don't get that sort of capability on a $300 machine.
(My machine is actually getting old by gaming standards, there's LOTS of games I no longer meet the minimum specs on because they are very demanding on capability. Unfortunately unlike a desktop you can't just replace a card or upgrade RAM or CPU to catch up).
I expect to replace the machine at the 5 year mark, as I expect that's when I will need to accommodate software that needs higher capabilities than I can manage.
Oh, gaming. Sure. Personally, I don't get having a laptop dedicated to gaming -- or a desktop -- rather than an XBox. And by Xbox, i mean any gaming-centric computer designed for that purpose. My thinking here is general purpose computers aren't necessarily the best at video games -- and that's why we have consoles.
ReplyDeleteThat's a bit out of the balliwck of MS software, which is where this thread started.
A year ago, I bought a $400 laptop. It had a solid state drive. I bought it from a Microsoft store. It was either an Acer or an Asus, but it was the cheapest with a SSD. Now, that computer is something like $250.
The primary computers used in our household are chromebooks -- which are now around $200. moving from one to another takes very little time.
Granted, they don't run word perfect. They don't run Excel. They don't do SQL. But, they chromecast pretty well -- and 90% of the time, that's all I need at home.
We use computers for a lot of things. Gaming is one part.
ReplyDeleteMy wife's desktop system is the powerhouse system for us as it was built for teleconferencing for her previous job so she could partake in company internal seminars etc. It makes my laptop look like a toy in comparison and was built and assembled by her and a friend of ours.
She also is an Accountant on her day job and that actually requires a fair amount of power, as does other things we do.
Google's office tools are not for me, I need Word Perfect, my wife needs to run the full MS Office system for her job (shes Certified from Bentley in all the aspects, macros, programing integration etc for Excel as part of her accounting work).
I have a little Nexus 7 (now discontinued I'm told) for my android toy, with an external bluetooth keyboard, which is probably about equiv to a $300 laptop in what it can do using google stuff (so I'm familiar with the google office etc). But its pretty much an on the go machine to check mail and read Kindle books on, and that only on wi-fi.
But I also don't have a cell phone....
Joseph Teller Remember, last year's $400 laptop is a windows computer that's now retailing at 250. It runs the full MS Office Suite -- and I did fairly heavy duty contracting with it. The little tiny thing has some remarkable housepower -- I think a lot of that is due to the SSD.
ReplyDeleteIn any event -- I don't really consider the OS a selling point, so I find it interesting that you do.
William Nichols, yesterday's crappy $400 laptop is $250, but it's still crap. You can't find a system on the MS store with more than 800 vertical pixels for less than $450. CPU power is one thing, but good displays still cost money.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that we need to set gaming aside. Games push the hardware in ways no other programs do, and I think the conversation is a lot more interesting if we keep it to systems for running business/office/design software.
We may also be getting into the growing divergence between computers for creating vs. consuming. I see a lot of users being satisfied with low-end machines because they generally use them to consume content. When I'm watching netflix, surfing the web, or listening to music, I only really need a little Chromebook. However, if I'm trying to create something, either graphically with InDesign, Photoshop, or Lightroom, textually with Word or Illustrator, mathematically with Excel or SQL, or all of the above, I want for a machine with real power. I'm a lot more productive in any or all of those programs with 24"+ displays, lots of RAM, and plenty of CPU power for processing. None of that stuff is going to run on a $300 Chromebook.
Joseph Teller I would consider replacing that HDD with an SSD on your laptop. It will significantly improve performance, and may get you an additional year or two of high-performance use. (Yes, an SSD will not help with Crysis 9, but it will help with everything else)
If software only runs on one OS and you need it, then that's an important selling point. But again you're not running the sort of software I use.
ReplyDeleteSame with graphics chips. If you MUST have a separate chip to run a program and that only comes on a Windows machine then thats where you are.
A Chrome Book is not really a computer, its a terminal. It has very little storage or software on board, and it depends on the internet.
I also need to work without the internet at times, sometimes for days, as I am in locations at times with no net access. A Chrome book then is a paperweight.
Thats also why I won't use MS 'rental' version of Office, nor will my wife. And why I buy my Wordperfect on disc.
I have friends with the same problems for different reasons. One of them is a merchant mariner. He has no internet access for personal use when at sea, only when in port (the little access the ship has at sea is a very narrow bandwidth for official weather and communications, and even as engineer or chief tech officer he can't use it for personal things when in the middle of the ocean).
Not everyone has the same needs in hardware and software.
Joseph Teller I'm fully aware different people have different needs. That's rather the point.
ReplyDeleteTed Cabeen I think this is about right: I can do heavy math and VBA coding on a pretty consumer-grade laptop, but I wouldn't try to load inDesign. I think its the graphics, rather than the raw processing, that makes such a huge difference. Besides, if I'm doing things right, I can do most of the Excel and SQL work server side. That requires some forethought, but it can be done.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols I can do math and coding on a consumer-grade laptop, but I don't really want to. When the rubber meets the road, I want to be able to have both a reasonably wide terminal/IDE and the API documentation open at the same time. On a Quad-HD laptop display that's doable, as it is with dual 24" Full-HD displays. On a 14" 720p display, it's not. That said, I programmed on a 80x24 emacs terminal in the 90's, so anything is possible. :)
ReplyDeleteTed Cabeen Oh, wait. When doing this, I always had two computers up: the windows computer, and the chromebook to do research.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols Ahh. That's not a bad solution, but it pushes you back up to the $700 level. You also can't cut and paste from the docs into the code. Still, not bad.
ReplyDeleteTed Cabeen Yeah, the lack of cut and paste is obnoxious. This is somewhat offset by not having both freeze at the same time.
ReplyDeleteAnd i don't think i can track the cost of the chromebook to that project, since it was already in heavy daily use.
"I rage quit word about once a week, and move a doc into Excel."
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like you're using the wrong tool to begin with? What are you doing in Word that is better done in Excel? You realize you can just snap your tables together (with calculations) in Excel and then cut-n-paste them back into Word as an actual object?
What makes you ragequit?
Gmail is a great mail program. I stopped using Eudora at home and finally switched over. I dislike their obvious push to make you archive rather than delete, especially when you have limited space. I suspect, at some point, they're going to start charging for additional space. I don't want to crap up my nice, searchable archive with every piece of crap I've ever received. I delete a lot of stuff. I archive a lot of stuff, too, so the power of the tool is not lost on me. (Google Inbox even goes so far to remove the delete button on the list and make you open the message to delete it. Grumble.)
Outlook makes it really easy for me to manage my email the way I want. I like the rules features, the out-of-office features, the previews, the conversation view (default in gmail, sure). It's easy to navigate entirely from the keyboard (Ctrl-D to delete, vs. X to mark to delete).
Anything I wanted to do in Access, I'd probably do either in Excel (with a SQL backend) or as a real application.
> What makes you ragequit?
ReplyDeleteTables. Indentations. Outlining. Numbering.
I'd rather use an email client to write anything with paragraphs, and anything that's a list I'd rather write in Excel. Anything that's multiple pages, I'd rather use Google's toy version.
I find Outlook incredibly difficult to what I want to with emails -- which is to read them, respond to them, and archive them immediately. I plop everything into an "archive" folder in Outlook, which doesn't always work well. I expect search to be quick and efficient, as it is in gmail. My memory is -- typically -- good enough to remember context clues that let me find email.
Inbox I found useless -- the information density is low, and I already keep near inbox zero.
Yes, Outlook's search sucks. I'll grant that. Read and respond is pretty basic in Outlook. I do tend to sort read messages (that I don't delete) into folders and I use the Move shortcut a lot to archive to recent folders.
ReplyDeleteI get the power of Google Mail. It's awesome. It's easy. Search is amazing, but that's what they do. But try pasting a table from Excel into it. Even attachments get a little weird sometimes.
I totally don't get your problems with Word. They all work magically for me. Numbering just works. Just number things and auto-numbering takes over. Indentations aren't hard with tab settings, though they did move them to non-obvious places the last big update. Outlining has its own mode and it's pretty easy to use. Tables basically work the way you need them to. If you really hate them, you can just do it in Excel and paste the table into Word.
What's your issue with paragraphs in word? Are you using styles properly? It's not a text editor.
I'm not selling you on MS Office. I know that's a lost cause. I'm just genuinely curious about our different experiences.
ReplyDeleteAdam - this article isn't bad at describing some of the issues:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fastcodesign.com/1669530/why-microsoft-word-really-sucks-it-was-invented-in-a-paper-powered-world
Its not Office that's the problem; its Word. Excel remains MVP, and the only reason I bought a windows computer. I make money doing Excel; Word doesn't empower me to make a dime more than Google Docs.
And you're right, getting from Excel to an email is weird/hard/bad, but getting from Excel to a google sheet often works. If it isn't too big, and if you're not use array functions. Or VBA. Or a bunch of other things -- Sheets is still a child.
Maybe this is expert use verses naive use; maybe I only sing the praises of Excel (or, curse its name!) the way I do due to being so damn good with it. Maybe you are to word as I am to Excel. Though, it seems like you think it works like magic, without putting forth effort to learn.
You know, like gmail or a chromebook.
Being good at Excel does require a learning curve, and there are parts that are very difficult to learn, that's why there are certification courses in its use at various business colleges. My wife had to go thru 2 years of courses and certifications to get to the level of competency she has with it. But shes an accountant and puts it thru processes and designs of templates, macros etc that I can't begin to fathom.
ReplyDeleteMe, I'm not as competant, in part because I was a Lotus 1-2-3 person to start and then later was introduced to Excel in the days when it was less effectively designed than 1-2-3 (I used Lotus and their software packages in some form until it was no longer published).
I do feel that Excel is the best part of MS Office and the one piece no one can clone (Open Office fails since it cannot interpret part of deep complex spreadsheets due to trademark and copyright limitations that prevent them from duplicating VB code etc evidently a language CAN be trademarked and copyrighted).
.
Joseph Teller Thanks true. However, it seems (to me, etc) that the basic experience of Excel is Excel as grid, while the basic experience of Word is frustration.
ReplyDeleteYMMY, but that's been my experience.
As I've said, William Nichols I'm not a fan of MS-Word, I use their surviving competitor Word Perfect as my word processor of choice when I can. There are still things I can do in it that are impossible to do in MS-Word alone and the learning curve is shorter.
ReplyDelete