Something I wonder about: Back in the 00s, my favorite GM (the one who taught me to ask questions) was on The Forge and spoke rather unfavorably of it. He and I have lost touch -- he's basically left the internet -- so i give this question:
Can anyone help me solve this puzzle? Why would a self-described narrativist GM loath the Forge? What went on there that would cause such distaste?
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ReplyDeleteOh: His name was Ev. He probably went by the handle Phoenix something or other.
ReplyDeleteThings apparently got pretty heated there... frequently. I still have some friends who will not speak to one another over disagreements they had at the Forge. As in I am friends with both parties, who mutually act as though the other doesn't exist.
ReplyDeleteThe Forge had many rivalries, many problems with ongoing personal attacks among members and a tendency of some people to try to apply academic standards to things to extremes.
ReplyDeleteBombastic. insulting and petty things did happen there at times.
I love many of the Forge derived games, but I always had negative experiences using the site. Its primary purpose always seemed to be stroking certain people's egos, and only secondarily did it do anything game design related. Obfuscation was frequently employed as a power tactic to intimidate and shut down anyone outside the Forge's innermost circle, petty bullshit throughout.
ReplyDelete#blameRon Ron Edwards ;)
ReplyDeleteI think whenever you try to place "standards" on an art form there are going to be heated debates about not just those standards but also where any given piece falls within those standards.
I never felt any of those debates myself, but then I rarely posted anything but encouragement. I was there for the games not the debates.
Joseph Teller inappropriate academic levels of discourse sounds like the guy. Have any examples in mind?
ReplyDeleteMickey Schulz This seems close to a lot of problems on the internet, when we forget there's a real human being on the other side. Doing that when you really know the other person seems ... a little ridiculous?
ReplyDeleteI don't think they knew each other at the time. But after the husband and I befriended both, we mentioned one to the other, and wow. So much angry.
ReplyDeleteNick Wedig why? Is this related to why there's so much politics in so many academic departments -- namely, because there's so little at stake? I mean, ultimately, isn't this people talking about playing pretend together? (Yes, gaming is important. Yes, RPGs can be transformative. Its still people playing games together ... right?)
ReplyDeleteRyan Northcott Standards such as GRS? Or, some more esoteric thing?
ReplyDeleteGNS. Yes. Trying to pack a specific creation into some defined space is always going to cause some people to lose their cool.
ReplyDeleteTheory is like that sometimes.
Ugh, if I never hear GNS theory again, it will be too soon.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, that shit started so many fights, and not just on the Forge.
There are many still-talked-about threads where certain folks were incredibly dismissive and insulting about people, due to not only the games they made, but even the games they enjoyed.
ReplyDeleteMy experience was that The Forge was a wonderful place and a gold mine of good, productive information and conversation as long as you chose subforums to interact in that matched your needs. Publishing was amazing, Actual Play was great, I stayed out of most of the other places. And, like any place, getting to know the actual people in real life helped the conversation a lot.
ReplyDeleteTodd Grotenhuis
ReplyDeleteLinks. Dismissiveness toward games designed, and toward games enjoyed. Let's see'em. 'Cause I'm calling bullshit.
I would post some links, but I've done way too many drugs since my days at the Forge, so trying to recall those links would be akin to me trying to remember where I was the night of November 12 1998 at 6pm.
ReplyDeleteI can tell you that in my early days on The Forge I once mildly slagged D&D 3.0 to gain social capital and was equally mildly rebuked for being a dick for trying it. Which is evidence supporting both sides I guess. If you want to find it it was one of my earliest posts and IIRC it was Mike Holmes who took me down for it.
ReplyDeleteRon Edwards Please don't deny other people's lived experiences, even if you are, well, you. This thread isn't meant to give objective truth, but to give an understanding of what would cause the harm and distaste from people I've known. Todd Grotenhuis 's experiences are very much in line with that; unfortunately, so is the defensiveness you just displayed.
ReplyDeleteNot kicking you off my lawn, but I do need you not to silence other people.
Speaking of which, I was nowhere near the safeway in question on that date, and the cabbage told me he was 18 anyway..
ReplyDeleteRon Edwards since you're here, did you know a user named phoenix drake? That was probably his handle....
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols
ReplyDeleteI can do some searching for phoenix drake - the software's pretty battered from various crashes so it's not as easy as it was.
To answer your initial question, this is what it was like at the Forge. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php?topic=30197.15 (link goes to the second page as the first sort of wanders at bit) - judge for yourself.
To address a couple of other points, I moderated both active and passive aggression explicitly and checked every day. The term "academic standards" was never mentioned or applied.