Uber.
I need to understand the arguments against them. Because I don't, and there's something there that is upsetting. I've read as many articles as I can, and they don't make sense to me. And I'm not dumb, so maybe its a blinders issue.
From where I sit, they:
1. Have reduced drunk driving. (there are stats!)
2. Have made it so I can get to my Thursday night gaming group without needing to take an hour long metro ride. (or, in other words, make it so the carless can get places mass transit doesn't go)
3. Do not allow discrimination from their drivers. Taxis, on the other hand, have a reputation for discimation, both in terms of who, and where and method of payment.
4. Have ridiculously good customer service.
5. Take credit cards, and don't need tips.
6. Pay drivers 80% of the revenue.
7. Yes, pay drivers as 1099s. This makes complete sense -- drivers choose their hours, provide their own equipment, and aren't managed the way employees are. I don't see this as a tax dodge -- I've been 1099 and I've been W-2, and the uber drivers seem a clear cut case of 1099.
8. Have doxxed journalists, which is TOTALLY NOT OK.
9. Have done some creepy work with data and Rides of Glory which, while creepy as shit, was anonymized.
10. Have a "god mode", allowing Uber employees to look at how anyone uses the service. This is ... problematic at best.
So ... please explain.
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Rowan Cota Please summon your horde?
ReplyDeleteI realize Uber is not a magical land where everything is shared, and the term "sharing economy"is bunk. But, the best comparison isn't a utopia, its taxis.
ReplyDeleteThis compiled list of articles is probably relevant to the discussion:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.whosdrivingyou.org/rideshare-incidents.html
A lot of the concern is quality control and accountability. Obviously these incidents do not represent anywhere close to a majority of drivers, but how do you know who you're going to get? I think most folks would be happy with some more protections in place.
Based on my personal experiences only, rather than stuff I have read on the Internet:
ReplyDelete1. I would not feel safe taking an Uber ride late at night alone. I feel safe taking a taxi. The reasons are, in part: Because I know that taxi companies are much more highly regulated. Medallions can cost $1 million, that is a large investment. I feel safer because taxi companies have a lot more to lose. I feel like if something happened in an Uber ride, it would be harder for me to sue or press charges. I feel like I would be blamed for taking Uber if I were assaulted, whereas I would not if I were taking a taxi.
2. My friend is blind and has a seeing eye dog. On four separate occasions, she has set up an Uber ride, with different drivers, they have driven up, looked at the seeing eye dog, and driven away. She has complained to Uber and they have promised to fix this problem, but after four attempts, I can only assume that they are unwilling to do so.
Uber skirts consumer protection and safety regulations, as well as unions in cities where taxis are unionized. (The example of the seeing eye dog is something that just would not fly in any other situation.) They also have a predatory pricing model during periods of peak demand including emergencies.
ReplyDeleteAnother main argument is that they are a taxi service and should be regulated as such. By (disingenuously) claiming that they are anything but a taxi, they are skirting the rules that are set forth for such services.
ReplyDeletePlus as Dana points out, the pricing can change at any time on the whims of the company while taxi fares are static.
Rape incidents, drivers have continued access to passenger info, a culture of sexism and objectification (they call it "boober" internally), a jackass of a CEO, vicious competitive practices that go far beyond fair competition, the CEO threatening to doxx a female journalist (who wasn't even that critical)-- and then using her personal rider information to call her directly, in complete violation of their own privacy policy.
ReplyDeleteI have used uber and I have used lyft. Neither is available in my city (Vegas taxi unions are extremely strong). I use lyft more often, but I've definitely felt creeped out and unsafe as a rider (that is also true of a commercial shuttle service, though). The uber black car service is the only one I'd really feel ok with using, and I'd never use it in my home city.
Aside from what Misha B and Dana Fried said they are also using that their drivers are not technically employees and their cars not technically taxis to ignore laws.
ReplyDeleteA Uber driver is not entitled to paid holidays, sick days and things like that. While the cars do not have to be maintained like taxis would. Uber also forces it's drivers into a gray area with their ensurance.
(I know more about the situation in Germany, where some cities have allready banned the service and I am sure there are different rules for taxis and employment than in the US)
Good point, if they are operating the vehicle and getting paid for it technically then it's a commercial vehicle and they should have commercial insurance, which they likely aren't. SO if you get into an accident with an Uber driver, their insurance can decide not to pay since most have a clause about not being used for commercial purposes.
ReplyDeleteEric Simon Thanks. Is there a similar record related to taxis? Or, hell, bus drivers? That is, how does Uber/Lyft/whatever compare to the alternatives? As an analogy: Sometimes planes crash. Planes are still safer than driving a similar distance.
ReplyDeleteVivian Spartacus You feel safer because the barrier to entry is higher? That ... yeah, I can see that. and not to discredit your lived experiences (really!), but I still wonder about empirical case here -- how often do bad things happen in taxis versus in ubers.
The example of the seeing eye dog is a good one -- it indicates Uber is bad for people with disabilities. Which, yeah, not OK. No similar problems with taxis? Hell, I can't even get a cab most of the time.
Dana Fried I should have put the emergency predator pricing in my list; I forgot it momentarily. It is, in fact, not ok. As for prices changing in general -- at least in theory, this is due to market forces, reacting in the moment. There's enough of an economist in me to think this is a positive. If there is a demand for the services of the drivers in the moment, then it makes sense that the price will go up -- isn't that economics?
As for unionized taxi services -- at least here, taxi drivers are considered independent businesses. Under what circumstances are they unionized?
Misha B Interesting. Despite reading as much as I can about this, I've not seen what regulations uber is ignoring. I imagine this is something more substantial than particular make and models of cars, but I don't know what. Is it the insurance? Is it who can be drivers?
Stephanie Bryant I didn't know they called it "boober". That's ... yeah. That suggests a corporate culture that is not ok. The CEO is absolutely a jerk. I mentioned the doxxing above, calling it out as not OK.
As for Vegas -- I read something about that. Apparently, Uber was there for a while, and did rides from the Airport. If memory serves, there is an expensive way and a cheap way to get to the city from the airport -- and taxi drivers will often (illegally) take tourists the wrong way, which there is little recourse to solve. Meanwhile, Uber fired drivers who did it. I could look up that article, if you're interested.
Philipp Neitzel This goes to point (7) in my original post. Taxi drivers -- at least here -- are also treated as independent business people. I've been on both sides of that, and the drivers are exactly treated like 1099s. Categorizing them as W-2 employees would make little sense in the US. Of all the arguments, this is the one I understand the least. Taxi drivers are also not treated like employees, so I fail to see how this is a meaningful difference.
As for insurance -- while an Uber driver has a passenger, they are covered by their insurance. Otherwise, they aren't. This isn't ideal, but it does seem reasonable.
Thank you all for the comments. And for being civil.
I know I have some anchoring effects going on, and will reread these again after lunch. With any luck, there will many more.
Part of my point is Uber being a bad deal for the drivers also.
ReplyDeleteI can see the appeal of earning some money on the side while you are driving around anyways.
But once it becomes a real source of income you are better of having a real job, with employer responsibilities.
I have been using car sharing services before and appreciate them as a way to save money and gasoline. (I guess not being too worried about my safety doing so is a privilege of being a white male and reasonably healthy) But the ones I uses were people just wanting to save some money on their travel, not making it a big part of their income.
Please do, since as I recall, Uber was here for about 2 weeks before the taxi unions shut them down, last year.
ReplyDelete"Long hauling" as it's called is definitely illegal and will get you fined, but you better believe every taxi driver will attempt to do it. Usually, they'll do it by asking if you want to go by the freeway or the Strip. Most people say yes, because they don't realize it's longer.
That's separate from issues with Uber, though.
Here's my splat on Uber. If anything I say is something you want me to get deeper on, let me know.
ReplyDelete1) Responsibility - If something happens to me in a taxi, there is not just a taxi company to hold responsible. I can theoretically "sue for relief" (in the sense of pursuing relief, not necessarily going to court) to the taxi commission, which as a government body at least theoretically answers to the people and not their shareholders.
2) I don't believe in the pure good of an unregulated market. Uber is depriving people of livelihood both within and without their company by increasing the number of cars on the road for hire. I have a problem with that, especially since Uber's goal is not to ensure people are making a living, but that they're turning a profit.
3) They are blatantly ignoring laws they don't think should apply to them, which is a similar problem I have with AirBnB. Maybe the taxi medallion system is corrupt, but currently it's the law and ridesharing for pay falls into a gray area.
4) Uber privileges certain riders over others. I suspect that low-income riders who, say, need an Uber to the grocery store get lower ride scores than wealthy white girls going to the bar. Which means if they drive taxi companies out of business, there are real people who will no longer have any kind of realistic transit option.
5) Taxi drivers at least theoretically aren't allowed to discriminate on which rides they take. Uber drivers can reject any ride they don't wish to carry. See point 4.
(More as I think of it.)
In Maryland (where I'm from) it has to be inspected and approved for registration as a for hire vehicle. The registration fee is more than double that of a regular passenger vehicle. You must also have approval from the Maryland Public Service Commission, which can also issue fines and such for infractions of the rules.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Nichols As this article points out, taxi companies typically carry umbrella insurance that covers other passenger safety issues, whereas Uber drivers only carry accident liability.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cnet.com/news/how-risky-is-your-uber-ride-maybe-more-than-you-think/
William Nichols Different countries with different laws. It was one of the main reasons why Uber was banned in some german cities and is sued in others.
ReplyDeleteOf course there also is a lobby for taxi buisnesses, who are working against Uber.
I lack expertise to explain the intricacies of german transportation laws and the differences between self employed taxi drivers, drivers working for a car rental place and Uber drivers. But there are some and it appears to me like the Uber drivers are getting the worse deal, with some risks to the passengers as well.
(Of course it could be argued they might not be (technically) employed at all without Uber.)
Personally I just assume that many Uber drivers were unable/unwilling to become real taxi drivers so turned scab. Which isn't a vote of confidence for them. The types of people who harangue about being "tied down" by union rules or safety regulations are exactly the ones those rules and regulations are meant to tie down.
ReplyDeleteStephanie Bryant I haven't found the article I remember, and when I google for Vegas and Uber, a G+ post from you comes up in the first page. But, here's one: reason.com/archives/2015/01/14/the-better-option
ReplyDeletePhilipp Neitzel I talked to my driver yesterday. Last year, he made more than I did. Granted, I had a really weird year, and he had a good one. We were both 1099 -- though, of course, he had additional expenses.
Rowan Cota
1. Given the state of the taxi industry before uber, I'm not sure I buy that suing for relief was much beyond theoretical.
2. ok, so this becomes a matter of personal philosophy. I think, at this point, I trust a market more than I trust say, the regulations on the taxi industry.
3. At least in Virginia (i know, I'm getting ridiculously specific), it is now out of the grey area and into the legal: Our legislature made it legal. It sounds like this is really a question of: What laws should govern ride sharing? Uber says no, and the rest of us say some. This is a thing that needs to be figured out, and right now, it is unclear.
4. Mayyybe? Are taxies a viable option anyway? This is definitely an argument that we need more and better mass transit -- but I'm not sure Uber can be the culprit here. Uber is cheaper than taxis, and I doubt the rating towards folks going to bars is that strong. Is there evidence of this bias? Other than, of course, rich people are viewed more favorably....
5. ... But, as an empirical fact, taxi drivers do discriminate. And its very hard to get them in trouble for it. So, Uber drivers refusing fares doesn't seem that different...
Misha B Any idea what that inspection covers?
ReplyDeleteEric Simon oooohhh, umbrella insurance. This is a ridiculously good point.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a poor person in San Francisco, taxis were routinely how I schlepped my groceries from the store to my house, twice a month.
ReplyDeleteI've also successfully used the taxi commission to deal with a driver who was inappropriate (attempted to charge me more than metered fare), so I am definitely biased in favor of that system because I've seen it work.
Philipp Neitzel Different laws in different countries will make this harder to translate, yeah. By my understanding, at least in the states, uber drivers are treated by Uber about how taxi drivers are treated by taxi companies. I don't know enough to talk about German law, either. I'll believe you that it is problematic.
ReplyDeleteJohn Spivak Do you have reason to believe this? At least according to my uber drivers, they switched because they could make more money.
Rowan Cota That's remarkable. Thank you. While I've been turned away from taxis, and have heard so many stories of them refusing to take fares that I have little -- if any -- trust in that system, and view it as simply failed.
ReplyDeleteRowan Cota Interesting that "schlepped" is a word that made it to the english language.
ReplyDeleteBut I wonder if I have been doing poverty wrong or if it is very different here. I would consider taking a taxi as a luxury and always use public transportation or a bicycle to schlepp big amounts of groceries.
Hmmmm. I wonder if this comes down to: Do you believe the taxi model works?
ReplyDeleteI think it is entirely failed -- they have refused to adapt, won't pickup in reasonable time frames, won't take fares, etc. I view them as a luxury or for emergency use only. And run by corrupt thieves.
As that view changes, perhaps the view of uber and other similar services changes.
Philipp Neitzel - Groceries were one of the few things I couldn't schelpp on pub trans due to how much I had to buy, so I had to budget the taxi fare into my budget. That may be part of the difference.
ReplyDeletePhilipp Neitzel My understanding -- second hand and often scholarly rather than experiential -- is that, with poverty, often comes the need for services the middle class view as luxuries. That is, it often costs more to be poor than middle class. And certainly it costs more to be poor than rich. (Vimes's Boot goes here)
ReplyDeleteI suspect a lot of how you view taxis depends on where you live. I live in Boston. I use taxi service frequently, and I love it. Drivers are courteous and know where they are going. Wait times are very low. My local city cab company has an app so you can order a cab and watch it arrive on your smartphone. So when I ask people why they use Uber, they generally say, "because it is a neat idea", rather than, "because taxi service is poor."
ReplyDeleteVivian Spartacus While a local taxi company responded to uber by ... creating a ford focus fleet. That was it. Meanwhile, I'd still have to call a person on the phone to get a taxi.
ReplyDeleteAs a former Lyft/Uber driver, I can say that schlepping carless people (mostly foreign students) was perfectly worth my time during the week. I even basically helped someone move one day (they packed my relatively tiny car full of bags and some groceries). There wasn't even an overlap with the more active "to the bar" crowd that would have led me to rate one lower than the other, though, and the only passengers I ever rated poorly were the so-drunk-its-obnoxious ones.
ReplyDeleteOf course, being a driver is different than having to deal with the random draw of which driver you get, but from my perspective Uber/Lyft were identical except for a slight shift in who used each (Uber was mostly older, Lyft was more younger college kids), nights when one app got more hits, and the fact that when I had the Uber app on I couldn't listen to my audiobook.
William Nichols Why wouldn't I believe it? It's completely in the realm of possibility and is part of the various worries about rider safety.
ReplyDeleteJohn Spivak in the realm of the possible, yes. I meant: Is there evidence?
ReplyDeleteSorry no, I lack CSI quality evidence on my concerns about a potential scenario.
ReplyDeleteYou have evidence that it can't possibly happen though, right?
John Spivak I believe we were discussing why folks become Uber drivers rather than taxi drivers. And, in my admittedly limited and biased experience (that is, talking to uber drivers), it is to make more money. So, I ask for evidence to the contrary to help move my position. Snark isn't evidence. :-)
ReplyDeleteSo, I've learned something today:
ReplyDelete0. Rowan Cota curates pretty well.
1. There is huge difference in the reliability and usefulness of taxis from city to city. I've never lived in a city where taxies were useful, but this is not universal.
2. I've not yet seen stats on either side -- I'm not sure it has been measured -- but there is considerable concern regarding passenger safety in Uber over taxis. I think this goes to point (1).
3. Groceries by taxi. That's a thing that exists.
4. Despite suggestions to the contrary, the only uber driver to show suggests poorer folk going to the grocery aren't rated worse than rich folk going to bars.
5. The cost of entry of a taxi versus an uber driver suggests taxi drivers are safer, as they have more to lose.
6. Uber is shit for ADA.
7. 1099 is potentially a bad way to pay, but so is W-2.
8. To combine together a couple points, a market that is regulated by assholes is a bad one.
9. Umbrella insurance -- taxi drivers have it, uber only has liability. I do not know what else this covers.
With those things, Uber is, certainly, problematic. In cities with decent taxi services, that is probably to be preferred. But, I do not live in such a city. As such, Uber may is my best option when mass transit won't due.
... What did I miss?
William Nichols More people should do posts like this, I think we all learn something :)
ReplyDeleteVivian Spartacus Thanks. I did make an edit to my "I learned something today" post -- namely, that in a city with shitty taxi services, Uber* can be the best option. Maybe that's a copout, but it seems true.
ReplyDelete* and lyft/etc, all of the "ride sharing" services.
I learned about a few subtle differences between the US and my country. That I might not have thought about.
ReplyDeletePhilipp Neitzel Is this on how drivers are paid, or something less obvious?
ReplyDeleteThat was one of the points. Or how taxi companies in general work.
ReplyDeleteBut also regulations and insurance details.
And a reminder how public transportation in the average german city is better established (and priced differently) than in a comparable US city.
But appearantly our languages have the word "schlepp" in common. So I will use that from now on. ;)
Schlepp is a great word. I think of it as Yiddish. When visiting anywhere in Europe, I'm shocked by the quality and cheapness of mass transit. I live in DC, where we have some of the best mass transit in the U.S. (shut up, NYC), and it is terrible in comparison.
ReplyDeleteBeing Jewish, I just think of schlepp as vocabulary. ;) (Seriously though, its utility can't be denied.)
ReplyDeleteYeah, Yiddish has some low german roots. Enough that I get lots of words when I read or hear it.
ReplyDeleteIn low german it is "slepen" or "schlüren" compared to the high german "schleppen".
That's fascinating! Thank you for sharing.
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome. I can talk about cross pollination of strange words all day. ;)
ReplyDeleteWhich birngs us back to topic. "Uber" I would guess took it's name from the german "über". Which in actual german more often means "about" and physically "over" or "above." The meaning of "better" actually is rarely used in actual german and suprisingly little in compound words.
The Nietzschien "Übermensch" of course one of the notable exceptions.
Philipp Neitzel While over here, Uber is basically only known for its association with Nietzsche.
ReplyDeleteAnd the first verse of the "Deutschlandlied". Which no longer is part of the german national anthem because of nazi associations.
ReplyDeleteThere is is supposed to mean better and / or more important as well.